E/R's: The Redheaded Stepchildren? - Guild Wars Forums

Shimus DarkRaven · Nov 15, 2005, 07:46 PM // 19:46

The more and more I play my E/R, people just tend to take me for my nuking but in clutch areas and whatnot, my traps and bow skills can get the group out of many a jam <I've did it more then once>, although I'm more widely accepted as a Elementalist, I just took it for energy storage and nukes. The rest I poured into ranger skills, and I must say, I'm pretty damn good <In my opinion> with my pet able to tank things while I nuke-away. Happy day!

Any comments on why E/R's get refused from a group when I say "Nuker or Trapper LFG UW" and mostly I always get refused, cause they didn't need an extra nuker, but needed a ranger ..I'm like "Hello, you idiot, I can trap just as well as the next guy because of energy storage" Granted, I can't take a hit to save my life, but if you get a group in UW thats good at trapping, you don't even need a cleric because they die die die.

They're like "Expertise! We need fast trappers!" Well there might be some truth to this, I still can lay traps down in rapid succession that other rangers would have to wait for energy to rise again, not to mention once traps are sprung, I can meteor shower to keep them in the vicinity of the traps. Love Knockdown! =)

But to the main point: Why do people refuse me? I'm as good as the next guy, but if they want a trapper, they tend to only like primaries. And if a FoW group needs a nuker, I'm right at home..it's like two different worlds that run on the same ideals. I'm needed there, but because of my "Ranger" secondary, Trapping groups don't want me..

Someone help me out...and clarify what these idiots are doing by refusing me =/

--The Shim

GWGuru · Nov 15, 2005, 07:58 PM // 19:58

it's a decent idea. I know that energy storage can boost the effectiveness of another build designed around a seperate main class. However for trapping energy storage really doesn't help. Expertise is such a perfect main attribute for rangers. 16 expertise turns 25 Energy traps into 9 energy traps, 15 energy traps into 5 energy traps, 10 energy traps into 4 energy traps...You really can't beat that even with Energy Storage. Not to mention that without a 16 in WS you really aren't all that effective as a trapper.

It's nice to see someone thinking outside the box. And I'm sure on a balanced team you could be somewhat effective. But in a trap team you're the broken end of the paddle.

Shimus DarkRaven · Nov 15, 2005, 08:26 PM // 20:26

but think, with energy storage, I'm not worried about dropping all those and then nuking to finish it off for a nice flourish to the others traps..but yes, thinking outside the box, and it is based off a primary, but it still works, very well, even without 16 because no hat/sup..I still can hit 12 fairly easy. 12 there, max energy <sup rune>, and rest Fire/Beast, still not doing as much as they are, but I get the extra knockdown from my nukes to keep in place if a trap needs reset..I call it, "The Support Trapper" build.

Shimus DarkRaven · Nov 16, 2005, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Just bumpin this. I want to see some people's answers.

--The Shim

Epinephrine · Nov 16, 2005, 03:31 PM // 15:31

It is an interesting idea, but any rogue builds are shunned.

People have it in their heads that :
Warriors tank.
Eles nuke
Rangers do lousy damage, but trap or interrupt
Necros are power sources
Monks heal
Mesmers sit there looking pretty

If you try to do anything outside of those roles you'll have trouble - why? Because they are addicted to the easy-to-assemble package of nukers, tanks and healers.

Even trapping is only done in specific parties - try to get a pug to let you set even a single row of traps for the warrior to lure aggro into and without a doubt all will charge by them, forcing a trapper build to play as a combat trapper, and reducing the effectiveness of strategically placed traps. Your Elementalist does wardsand protection? No - they'll opt for a monk. You are a curse necromancer using illusion to interfere with melee? No thanks, we'l take the battery over here - power for nuker/healer ftw!!eleven!

People are stupid. You'll have to make your own groups, and instead of the generic "LF nuker" think of what you really need. DO you really need that 2nd (3rd?) monk? Would reducing incoming damage be better? Maybe the guy who says he uses sympathetic visage while tanking has a point? Without adrenaline the enemies don't deal as much damage. I guess I just like odd builds, so I'll build my party not on a profession basis, but on a "task" basis - what tasks can you do for the party, and does it complement our build?

TwinRaven · Nov 16, 2005, 04:52 PM // 16:52

The plain and simple truth is that people are narrow-minded. I tend to try oddball builds from time to time and find those are the builds I find most interesting. I have a N/R and had a helluva time getting invited to trap the UW. I was hoping to charm a Spider (which I finally had the chance to do after much begging)...I find that 12 in WS is less effective than the 16 my R/N has, but when you saturate the ground with traps, the difference is negligable. The thing I find humorous here...now I see quite a few Trapping Parties inviting a necro along...seems we make great batteries (a term I personally find offensive as a necro - I prefer: Source of power for the energy-challenged). I like the idea you have for the E/R...I see your reasoning and think the idea sports some merrit for being less-than-typical...currently I'm working out the bugs in Mo/R build with a tanking pet...so far so good.

Shyft the Pyro · Nov 16, 2005, 05:02 PM // 17:02

I think the reason your E/R gets rejected by UW trapping groups is that most people believe the primary class determines gameplay. When I say something to the extent of "E/Mo lfg. Will set up as nuker, healer, or tank," half the time I am greeted with "You can't heal/tank!" In reality, my E/Mo can spam Healing or Protection spells longer than a primary Monk, especially if I crack myself out with Ether Prodigy, and stand in the face of Aatxes with Ward Against Melee, Armor of Earth and Kinetic Armor up, rezzing the W/Mo's who so like their little dirt naps. I may not have Divine Favor to trigger or a big and powerful weapon to swing, but I fill the roles no one expects me to with an Elementalist - because most people who play online games unfortunately lack creativity, or dedication, or time to examine the interactions between not only different skills but also different professions. I mean, battery Necromancers did not get popular until recently, while the skills have been there all along. Rather than create something for themselves, most people prefer to coast on established and proven skillsets and party combinations in order to assure they succeed.

Mesmerized · Nov 16, 2005, 05:06 PM // 17:06

I can't even get my water ele into a group right now in Kryta, no one even knows what Blurred Vision + Deep Freeze is, or wth snaring is.

And the only time I pretty much ever got a group without bein with a guidie monk or nuker was for Thirsty River where I said I could f up the last enemy monk like no ones biznitude to win the mission hands down.

But yeah, back on topic, the E/R trapper seems like a good idea, It just comes down to the whole, you have an E in the beginning of your name, you better nuke.

DreamCatcher · Nov 16, 2005, 09:16 PM // 21:16

I used my ele like it was a trapper (I posted that earlier I think) and it does play differently

First thing I noticed is that using all 3 traps (no spike) I tend to run out of energy in no time.
When using just barbed and flame I could continue laying traps as my traps recharged and not run out of energy.
Also max ws is just 12 ofcourse, but when in a large trapper party (6 or more trappers) this doesn't realy hurt the team anyway. You'll probably do better then the newb trappers imo.

What gives the E/R Trapper an edge is using ele skills that give better support then ranger skills (like blinding from a distance using blinding flash instead of having to use throwdirt, often getting hit by an aaxte atleast once) or using enervating charge so aaxtes needed 4 hits instead of just 2 to kill someone.

I used a quest reward longbow 11-18dmg which only required 3 marksmanship (so costing only 6 attribute points) or you could do away with marksmanship completely and bring something like kindle (is a ws skill, and you'll be able to do damage while you can recharge your energy reserves)

It's definately fun and interesting to make such a build work well, and if done properly it will

Pevil Lihatuh · Nov 16, 2005, 09:37 PM // 21:37

I'd have to say people are stupid then.

Though the expertise is nice, you have about 4x the energy of a primary ranger anyway. Nothing to stop you getting 12 WS if you really need to, along with your ES. I'd be very happy to have you in a group. As you say, if the groups get through your traps, its not a good sign anyway

striderkaaru · Nov 16, 2005, 09:51 PM // 21:51

i think the answer to your question has already been mentioned. most pugs cannot even fathom the idea of a non standard build, so they simply reject it. as an experienced uw trapper, i'll tell you now that anyone making a group of 4-5 trappers and absolutely requires you to have 16 ws is a noob trapper. my bro and i dual trap in uw with only 14 in ws each. 3+ trappers at 16 ws makes it easier, but is certainly not necessary.

with that said, i honestly don't know how you can solve your problem. that's how pugs are and i doubt they will ever change.

TwinRaven · Nov 23, 2005, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Funny thing happened the other day...I Hate (note the cap H) to form parties...seems everyone likes to be in a group, but rarely likes to start one. I went against my usual proclivities and started a PUG with "tired of looking for a group? Invite self to mixed group....noobs welcome, monks optional."
Group of 8 formed in less than a minute...we sucked at first but got a regular rhythm down and made a bit of gold and had one gold drop and 3 ecto (sadly, none for me)...totally woth it though.

JR · Nov 24, 2005, 09:54 AM // 09:54

Let me try this one more time without my post being deleted.

E/R trappers don't work. To be a competant trapper, you need 15+ Wilderness, and 10+ Expertise. Yes Energy storage is a slight compensation, but does nothing for the fact that your traps will be far less effective. On top of this, if you max out WS and ES, your not going to have many attributes left for much "nuking", let alone energy.

Digital Bath · Nov 24, 2005, 11:55 AM // 11:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Let me try this one more time without my post being deleted.

E/R trappers don't work. To be a competant trapper, you need 15+ Wilderness, and 10+ Expertise. Yes Energy storage is a slight compensation, but does nothing for the fact that your traps will be far less effective. On top of this, if you max out WS and ES, your not going to have many attributes left for much "nuking", let alone energy.

Wasn't this one of the general populus mentioned? OMG STADANRDIZED BUILD NAZI!

entropy · Nov 24, 2005, 04:22 PM // 16:22

My E/R trapper is lucky I guess. I used to fine trap groups all the time and we cleared the smites every time. Energy Storage+Ether Prodigy=unlimited traps basically for me. Only had to wait for exhaustion every few times.

chippxero · Nov 24, 2005, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Due to the number of players these days most people are just judging from primarys as they themselves don't experiment with combinations and only took a secondary because they had to.

For areas like FOW, UW and SF people are used to getting certain things from certain character types like Epinephrine said, and they aren't willing to try something a little different.

Ollj · Nov 24, 2005, 04:50 PM // 16:50

e/r may use bow and pett attacks to gain energy.

ignore anyone who ignores your knowledge.

Mahanaxar · Nov 24, 2005, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pevil Lihatuh

you have about 4x the energy of a primary ranger anyway

Wow, 168 energy?

I usually go with 3 people, and I prefer primary rangers.
16 ws is not necessary, but 12, imo, is too low in very small teams.

entropy · Nov 24, 2005, 06:38 PM // 18:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mahanaxar

Wow, 168 energy?

I usually go with 3 people, and I prefer primary rangers.
16 ws is not necessary, but 12, imo, is too low in very small teams.

But me ele can set twice as many traps as you can :P so that 4 extra att points don't really matter.

Mahanaxar · Nov 24, 2005, 06:47 PM // 18:47

No you can't. A good team traps for around a minute, not half an hour.
I never run out of energy (druidic armor+staff+high expertise+qz+ew).
Sometimes I have to wait for traps recharge, but never for energy.

In 6/7/8 people teams you can even pick a war/ranger.

In 2- or 3-trappers team I'm sorry, but I go with primary rangers.

Nov 15, 2005, 07:46 PM // 19:46	#1
Shimus DarkRaven Desert Nomad Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Titusville, PA <nowhere> Guild: KOD <Knights of the Dragonrose><Guild Officer> Profession: W/Mo	E/R's: The Redheaded Stepchildren? The more and more I play my E/R, people just tend to take me for my nuking but in clutch areas and whatnot, my traps and bow skills can get the group out of many a jam <I've did it more then once>, although I'm more widely accepted as a Elementalist, I just took it for energy storage and nukes. The rest I poured into ranger skills, and I must say, I'm pretty damn good <In my opinion> with my pet able to tank things while I nuke-away. Happy day! Any comments on why E/R's get refused from a group when I say "Nuker or Trapper LFG UW" and mostly I always get refused, cause they didn't need an extra nuker, but needed a ranger ..I'm like "Hello, you idiot, I can trap just as well as the next guy because of energy storage" Granted, I can't take a hit to save my life, but if you get a group in UW thats good at trapping, you don't even need a cleric because they die die die. They're like "Expertise! We need fast trappers!" Well there might be some truth to this, I still can lay traps down in rapid succession that other rangers would have to wait for energy to rise again, not to mention once traps are sprung, I can meteor shower to keep them in the vicinity of the traps. Love Knockdown! =) But to the main point: Why do people refuse me? I'm as good as the next guy, but if they want a trapper, they tend to only like primaries. And if a FoW group needs a nuker, I'm right at home..it's like two different worlds that run on the same ideals. I'm needed there, but because of my "Ranger" secondary, Trapping groups don't want me.. Someone help me out...and clarify what these idiots are doing by refusing me =/ --The Shim

Nov 15, 2005, 07:58 PM // 19:58	#2
GWGuru Banned Join Date: Nov 2005	it's a decent idea. I know that energy storage can boost the effectiveness of another build designed around a seperate main class. However for trapping energy storage really doesn't help. Expertise is such a perfect main attribute for rangers. 16 expertise turns 25 Energy traps into 9 energy traps, 15 energy traps into 5 energy traps, 10 energy traps into 4 energy traps...You really can't beat that even with Energy Storage. Not to mention that without a 16 in WS you really aren't all that effective as a trapper. It's nice to see someone thinking outside the box. And I'm sure on a balanced team you could be somewhat effective. But in a trap team you're the broken end of the paddle.

Nov 15, 2005, 08:26 PM // 20:26	#3
Shimus DarkRaven Desert Nomad Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Titusville, PA <nowhere> Guild: KOD <Knights of the Dragonrose><Guild Officer> Profession: W/Mo	but think, with energy storage, I'm not worried about dropping all those and then nuking to finish it off for a nice flourish to the others traps..but yes, thinking outside the box, and it is based off a primary, but it still works, very well, even without 16 because no hat/sup..I still can hit 12 fairly easy. 12 there, max energy <sup rune>, and rest Fire/Beast, still not doing as much as they are, but I get the extra knockdown from my nukes to keep in place if a trap needs reset..I call it, "The Support Trapper" build.

Nov 16, 2005, 03:06 PM // 15:06	#4
Shimus DarkRaven Desert Nomad Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Titusville, PA <nowhere> Guild: KOD <Knights of the Dragonrose><Guild Officer> Profession: W/Mo	Just bumpin this. I want to see some people's answers. --The Shim

Nov 16, 2005, 03:31 PM // 15:31	#5
Epinephrine Master of Beasts Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Ottawa, Canada Guild: Servants of Fortuna [SoF]	It is an interesting idea, but any rogue builds are shunned. People have it in their heads that : Warriors tank. Eles nuke Rangers do lousy damage, but trap or interrupt Necros are power sources Monks heal Mesmers sit there looking pretty If you try to do anything outside of those roles you'll have trouble - why? Because they are addicted to the easy-to-assemble package of nukers, tanks and healers. Even trapping is only done in specific parties - try to get a pug to let you set even a single row of traps for the warrior to lure aggro into and without a doubt all will charge by them, forcing a trapper build to play as a combat trapper, and reducing the effectiveness of strategically placed traps. Your Elementalist does wardsand protection? No - they'll opt for a monk. You are a curse necromancer using illusion to interfere with melee? No thanks, we'l take the battery over here - power for nuker/healer ftw!!eleven! People are stupid. You'll have to make your own groups, and instead of the generic "LF nuker" think of what you really need. DO you really need that 2nd (3rd?) monk? Would reducing incoming damage be better? Maybe the guy who says he uses sympathetic visage while tanking has a point? Without adrenaline the enemies don't deal as much damage. I guess I just like odd builds, so I'll build my party not on a profession basis, but on a "task" basis - what tasks can you do for the party, and does it complement our build?

Nov 16, 2005, 04:52 PM // 16:52	#6
TwinRaven Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Apr 2005 Profession: W/	The plain and simple truth is that people are narrow-minded. I tend to try oddball builds from time to time and find those are the builds I find most interesting. I have a N/R and had a helluva time getting invited to trap the UW. I was hoping to charm a Spider (which I finally had the chance to do after much begging)...I find that 12 in WS is less effective than the 16 my R/N has, but when you saturate the ground with traps, the difference is negligable. The thing I find humorous here...now I see quite a few Trapping Parties inviting a necro along...seems we make great batteries (a term I personally find offensive as a necro - I prefer: Source of power for the energy-challenged). I like the idea you have for the E/R...I see your reasoning and think the idea sports some merrit for being less-than-typical...currently I'm working out the bugs in Mo/R build with a tanking pet...so far so good.

Nov 16, 2005, 05:02 PM // 17:02	#7
Shyft the Pyro Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: NYC, USA Profession: E/Mo	I think the reason your E/R gets rejected by UW trapping groups is that most people believe the primary class determines gameplay. When I say something to the extent of "E/Mo lfg. Will set up as nuker, healer, or tank," half the time I am greeted with "You can't heal/tank!" In reality, my E/Mo can spam Healing or Protection spells longer than a primary Monk, especially if I crack myself out with Ether Prodigy, and stand in the face of Aatxes with Ward Against Melee, Armor of Earth and Kinetic Armor up, rezzing the W/Mo's who so like their little dirt naps. I may not have Divine Favor to trigger or a big and powerful weapon to swing, but I fill the roles no one expects me to with an Elementalist - because most people who play online games unfortunately lack creativity, or dedication, or time to examine the interactions between not only different skills but also different professions. I mean, battery Necromancers did not get popular until recently, while the skills have been there all along. Rather than create something for themselves, most people prefer to coast on established and proven skillsets and party combinations in order to assure they succeed.

Nov 16, 2005, 05:06 PM // 17:06	#8
Mesmerized Frost Gate Guardian Join Date: Jul 2005 Guild: Order of the Temple [Temp] Profession: Mo/	I can't even get my water ele into a group right now in Kryta, no one even knows what Blurred Vision + Deep Freeze is, or wth snaring is. And the only time I pretty much ever got a group without bein with a guidie monk or nuker was for Thirsty River where I said I could f up the last enemy monk like no ones biznitude to win the mission hands down. But yeah, back on topic, the E/R trapper seems like a good idea, It just comes down to the whole, you have an E in the beginning of your name, you better nuke.

Nov 16, 2005, 09:16 PM // 21:16	#9
DreamCatcher Frost Gate Guardian Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Netherlands Guild: DVDF Profession: R/Mo	I used my ele like it was a trapper (I posted that earlier I think) and it does play differently First thing I noticed is that using all 3 traps (no spike) I tend to run out of energy in no time. When using just barbed and flame I could continue laying traps as my traps recharged and not run out of energy. Also max ws is just 12 ofcourse, but when in a large trapper party (6 or more trappers) this doesn't realy hurt the team anyway. You'll probably do better then the newb trappers imo. What gives the E/R Trapper an edge is using ele skills that give better support then ranger skills (like blinding from a distance using blinding flash instead of having to use throwdirt, often getting hit by an aaxte atleast once) or using enervating charge so aaxtes needed 4 hits instead of just 2 to kill someone. I used a quest reward longbow 11-18dmg which only required 3 marksmanship (so costing only 6 attribute points) or you could do away with marksmanship completely and bring something like kindle (is a ws skill, and you'll be able to do damage while you can recharge your energy reserves) It's definately fun and interesting to make such a build work well, and if done properly it will

Nov 16, 2005, 09:37 PM // 21:37	#10
Pevil Lihatuh Jungle Guide Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Yorkshire, UK Profession: R/Me	I'd have to say people are stupid then. Though the expertise is nice, you have about 4x the energy of a primary ranger anyway. Nothing to stop you getting 12 WS if you really need to, along with your ES. I'd be very happy to have you in a group. As you say, if the groups get through your traps, its not a good sign anyway

Nov 16, 2005, 09:51 PM // 21:51	#11
striderkaaru Desert Nomad Join Date: Aug 2005 Guild: Scars Meadows [SMS], Retired Officer Profession: W/	i think the answer to your question has already been mentioned. most pugs cannot even fathom the idea of a non standard build, so they simply reject it. as an experienced uw trapper, i'll tell you now that anyone making a group of 4-5 trappers and absolutely requires you to have 16 ws is a noob trapper. my bro and i dual trap in uw with only 14 in ws each. 3+ trappers at 16 ws makes it easier, but is certainly not necessary. with that said, i honestly don't know how you can solve your problem. that's how pugs are and i doubt they will ever change.

Nov 23, 2005, 08:32 PM // 20:32	#12
TwinRaven Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Apr 2005 Profession: W/	Funny thing happened the other day...I Hate (note the cap H) to form parties...seems everyone likes to be in a group, but rarely likes to start one. I went against my usual proclivities and started a PUG with "tired of looking for a group? Invite self to mixed group....noobs welcome, monks optional." Group of 8 formed in less than a minute...we sucked at first but got a regular rhythm down and made a bit of gold and had one gold drop and 3 ecto (sadly, none for me)...totally woth it though.

Nov 24, 2005, 09:54 AM // 09:54	#13
JR Re:tired Join Date: Nov 2005 Profession: W/	Let me try this one more time without my post being deleted. E/R trappers don't work. To be a competant trapper, you need 15+ Wilderness, and 10+ Expertise. Yes Energy storage is a slight compensation, but does nothing for the fact that your traps will be far less effective. On top of this, if you max out WS and ES, your not going to have many attributes left for much "nuking", let alone energy.

Nov 24, 2005, 04:22 PM // 16:22	#15
entropy Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Jun 2005 Profession: N/W	My E/R trapper is lucky I guess. I used to fine trap groups all the time and we cleared the smites every time. Energy Storage+Ether Prodigy=unlimited traps basically for me. Only had to wait for exhaustion every few times.

Nov 24, 2005, 04:35 PM // 16:35	#16
chippxero Krytan Explorer Join Date: May 2005 Location: norfolk Guild: Super Anti Rabbit Squad [SARS] Profession: Mo/Me	Due to the number of players these days most people are just judging from primarys as they themselves don't experiment with combinations and only took a secondary because they had to. For areas like FOW, UW and SF people are used to getting certain things from certain character types like Epinephrine said, and they aren't willing to try something a little different.

Nov 24, 2005, 04:50 PM // 16:50	#17
Ollj Jungle Guide Join Date: May 2005	e/r may use bow and pett attacks to gain energy. ignore anyone who ignores your knowledge.

Nov 24, 2005, 06:47 PM // 18:47	#20
Mahanaxar Krytan Explorer Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Italy Guild: Lupus Et Agnus Profession: R/	No you can't. A good team traps for around a minute, not half an hour. I never run out of energy (druidic armor+staff+high expertise+qz+ew). Sometimes I have to wait for traps recharge, but never for energy. In 6/7/8 people teams you can even pick a war/ranger. In 2- or 3-trappers team I'm sorry, but I go with primary rangers.